Journal Entry #389
March 24th, 2011
One of the tactics that really bugs me is the use of intellectual dishonesty.
Intellectual dishonesty is dishonesty in performing intellectual activities like thought or communication. Examples are:
- the advocacy of a position which the advocate knows or believes to be false or misleading
- the advocacy of a position which the advocate does not know to be true, and has not performed rigorous due diligence to ensure the truthfulness of the position
- the conscious omission of aspects of the truth known or believed to be relevant in the particular context.
These are the practises I would expect from a used car salesman. Now this can be seen consistently during any discussion where one professes to know truth but has no evidence to back it up. I am going to step out on a limb here and say that many people who profess a belief in god are not as sure as they pretend to be but you have to play the game.
I guess the first thing I would like to see is people being honest about being honest. I consistently ask one question as the basis for most of my discussions. I ask people to define truth and the method they use to determine it. The only people that have been honest with me so far are non-believers. I mean all you have to do is look in a dictionary to get the correct meaning and yet I will hear the meaning they want to use that will verify their beliefs. The big one is; god is truth which means absolutely nothing. You might as well say Bigfoot is truth.
So how can we ever have a positive discourse if people are basically going to lie from the outset? We can’t and that is very sad as the truth deserves to be approached from the truth at the very onset. Once again I feel the best way to demonstrate this would be an actual conversation. As it happens this is a daily occurrence so all I have to do is take today’s discussions to demonstrate.
I want to point out from the beginning the comment made to me which prompted me to fell there was a chance at discussion. If you follow along you will see how this statement is not honoured.
“And I would love to speak with you about anything. Completely without judgment or condemnation. Who am I but another man seeking the truth.”
Here is the entire conversation which I thought was going to have some legs but quickly changed tone.
Christian…………… Hi Gary,
I certainly don’t want to get into a heated theological debate. It solves nothing. What I can say is that many people who claim they are Christians really have no clue and are not disciples of Jesus. Many times in the Bible Jesus tells us that as we must seperate ourselves from the world and immerse ourselves in Him, then He reveals Himself to us. The ways of God make no sense to the world. Jesus says that to gain life you must lose it first. To be first in the Kingdom of God you must be last, to be exalted, you must be humbled. So on, and so on…. It starts as a heart thing, not a head thing. You cannot intellectualize God. He is the creator. We are only the creation. The pottery cannot say to the potter, I don’t want to be a vase, I want to be a bowl. We try to figure God out and that is impossible. First we must take a step of faith and realize that we need Him. Then we must be discipled to maturity. Many, many times the problem with Christians getting saved is that they are not rooted in firm soil. They have been planted in rocky soil or weeds and they eventually wither and die. To grow in Christ and gain knowledge from God you must continue to seek Him daily. It is a journey, but well worth it.
It was nice talking to you Gary,
Gary David Currie……………
But you didn’t tlak to me you did exactly as I said Christians do you preached to tell me what you think but you don’t want to hear what I have to say. I find this narrow minded to be honest. Also what you have said is based only on your opinion and I would absolutly disagree. What you are telling me is that I was not the right kind of Christian. I noticed you did not ask me any questions to try and find out more or to understand Also sad.. What this really means is that my experience with Christianity becasue it does not yield the result you feel it must is not correct. Did you ever think that my experience might be right and that once I realized that god probably was not real that I had found the truth. Take offence if you want to be this demonstrated a closed-mimnded attitude on your part. When you are actually ready to talk which actually includes listening then write me again. I am well aware of the Christian faith aand what is required to be a Christian I am just not willing to pretend like the rest of you that god is real. I actually value the truth not what I want to be true.
I won’t say it was nice talking with you because that actually hasn’t happend yet.
Please don’t be offended. I am not attempting to preach to you. I was merely giving you my experiences. I find today’s church lacking in many areas and will one day stand in judgment before God. I seek the truth, that’s all. And I have found it within God’s word. I am not here to judge you. Honestly, I am not. And I would love to speak with you about anything. Completely without judgment or condemnation. Who am I but another man seeking the truth.
Gary David Currie…………
Cool and no problem I am not offended in any way. There is nothing you can say that will offend me. I just called what you said to me like I saw it. I meant no offence as well. I am glad to hear you seek the truth that is awesome. I would suggest you ask some questions to get to know me before you tell me your story. Once you do you will see that as a form of evidence I give testimonials very little credibility but I uinderstand the power of personal experience.
I base my conclusions which can always change based on evidence. I admit I can be wrong on anything but it will have to be based on evidence. I use the methods of science and reason to determine what is true.
If you are interested in talking, great. I have no illusion or desire to change anyone’s mind ( that is impossible) my goal is to bridge gaps between people who are of different views and above all acknowledge what is true.
I will ask you this if you are willing to talk as a starting point so we have common ground. This is very important and if we cannot agree on this we will have a very hard time talking .
What is your definition of truth and what method do you use to determine it? This method must work on all things in life.
If you want to find out more about me and this is my public persona here is my website. I am a musician, artist and writer with the focus on seeking the truth. My blog is under Journal. I will warn you now you might find some of what I promote or create offensive but I believe great art is meant to provoke. This is how we initate discussion.
I look forward to your response if you are willing. By the way we all judge and I am just fine with that it is the condemnation I have a problem with.
The Freeman – Official Website
I will check out your website and blog today. For me truth is revealed to me through God’s word. It is black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus Christ is truth. I have seen God heal people from life long diseases. I have seen Him open the eyes of the blind, make the mute talk and the deaf hear. I have even seen God raise a man from the dead. I know that there is a God because He has shown Himself to me in so many ways. For the first time in my life God spoke to me in an audible voice. It was in teh middle of teh night about a few months ago. Shortly before I went to Africa. I was woken up and could not get back to sleep. I went into the living room and began to pray. I heard someone talking but thought it was my son or wife. I went and checked on them and they were both sound asleep. I shut their bedroom doors and went back into the living room. A few minutes later I heard it again. This time I understood the words. Then again, and finally a third time. Each time getting louder but saying the same thing. I heard the words “In the name of Jesus”. I could not figure out why God would choose to speak those words but I found out about a week later when I was in Africa. In the name of Jesus, lives were transformed. I am certainly a believer in science. I love it.
Anyways, many people, maybe yourself, use science to show truth in their life. I use science to prove the existence of God. God created science and it always points back to him.
So that is my basic views on truth. I look forward to reading your blog and learning more about you.
Gary David Currie ………..
Thanks for sharing . Unfortunately what you have done is given me antidotal evidence. I would ask how your method applies to determining all truths and that is the important part. What you are doing is fitting your beliefs in the evidence. If this is the method and there can only be one method whatever it is to determine truth can you show me how to for example verify;
- If teapots fly around the moon..
- If my name really is Gary David Curre
- If a virus mutates
- If I have 3 children
- If the Andromeda galaxy actually exists.
Now if you say like you have that the truth is black and white, then your method should work ccorrect? By saying god created science you are using what we call circular logic which proves nothing becasue I could also use it to prove I am god or I am Jesus.
Please don’t tell me that you actual bottom line is ” It’s all part of god’s plan” if this is what you are saying then I will tell you that is a conversation stopper. I can use the same thing by saying it is all part of natures plan for every question but this will get us nowhere in the search for truth.
None of your miracles are verifiable which in no way makes them true.. If you really are searching for truth then you have to be able to step outside of your beliefs and look at things, You have to be wiling to admit you can be wrong on anything. If you cannot do this then you are really not searching for truth as you already feel you have all the truths. If science worked this way we would not be talking on the internet.
If you use science to prove the existence of god you will come to the conclusion like the vast majority of scientists that god is not real. Now again you will probably know a few scientists who believe in god and quote them but more tan 90% of their peers disagree and when you put bias in science it is bad science.
Also faith is absolutely the worse reason and actually means you have no verifiable evidence to believe something as true.
Come on really miracles. I will beleive god is responsible for miracles if I see him grow back an arm or leg someone has lost. Now that would be a true test.
“I fear the man who believes he has arrived for the destination always changes”
Gary David Currie
I have to make this short because I must go out but first of all you must understand that I am not hear to prove anything to you. I believe what I believe because it is truth in my life. You say that the miracles that I saw God perform are not verifiable. I say that is not true. You may choose not to believe them but that does not make them any less true. Just because your eyes does not see something does not make it not true. You cannot see the wind but you know it exists, because you can see the evidence of it by trees swaying and moving. You cannot see the electricity flowing through your house wiring but you know it’s there because you can turn on your lights. I know that God is real because I have seen the evidence of His presence on this earth. I have seen His miracles. Maybe you have not but that does not prove anything. If you had witnessed an old man from birth that has never seen, suddenly get his sight, I think you would have a different perspective. As far as faith goes, that is the life of a true disciple of Jesus. The just shall live by faith Habakkuk 2:4. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says that we live by faith, not by sight. I cannot prove intellectually the existence of God to anyone. Unless they are willing to take a step of faith. I certainly do not believe I have arrived. That is a definite! I am continually learning. But my learning is based upon God’s word. Have you ever watched the documentary “Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. If not, check it out. It was written by an atheist/agnostic…
I want to end this by telling you that I pray one day you will realize that there is a God and He wants you to be a part of His family. This life is short, but eternity is forever. If you are wrong about God and I am right, then you will spend eternity in Hell. If I am wrong and you are right, then what have I lost? God has changed my life and rescued me for certain death. I love my life now and it’s all because of God.
May God reveal himself to you,
Gary David Currie …….
Yes me not believing can make it less true. Of course your not here to prove anything . I already made that clear. But really the burden of prove does rest with the one making the claim but Christians refuse to accept as well as all religions this responsibility. That is a problem becasue if you cannot prove a claim why make it in the first place.
You say your miracles are verifiable then verify them. That means they must be testable, repeatable and will stand up to the verifiaction process. If they do not the probablity that they are real is very low.
Your preaching again. let me tell you this and of course you will not accept this as evidence even though it is. Many people have prayed for me and their prayers have not been answered so this tells us 3 things;
1. I am not worthy and god says all are worthy.
2. You are not praying correctly and how can we verify this
3. there is no god and of course prayer will not work and this is the obvious answer
Of course now you as others will offer excuses why this does not work. Listen I have put god to the test many times and he has always failed. To continue this process is like beating a dead horse.
God rescued you from nothing you just think he did. You assigned a value to your experience just as the Muslims assign their god to theirs.
Look I told you I ask hard questions and I accept verifiable evidence. let’s get away from the testimonials and preaching please. I have heard it all before many times and frankly it is insulting to my intelligence.
You also refused to show me how your version of truth will answer the questions I posed. This is called side stepping which means you know that you really have no answer. You said you wanted to talk did you think I was just going to roll over after a few testimonials. If you don’t want to talk and just want to offer me comments that cannot be verified we will get nowhere. I am not a jail house conversion here.. I am well educated on the topic of religion. So if you really want to talk then let’s talk. To be honest I don’t really care about whether you love your life or not that has no bearing on what is true.
Also please not the bible quote game.. for everyone you give me that supports your view I can offer one that will not. The bible is a terrible source for truth and is full of contradictions. it is a book written 1600 years ago to describe the human condition of the time. It has no place in today’s modern world.
Keep trying it takes time to get into a good conversation unless your intention is to just convert me which means you really are not listening. If you disagree with me great then back it up with evidence that is verifiable.
Pray if you want to your choice. it means nothing to me..
Gary David Currie …….
Also Lee Strobel is a terrible reporter. He corrupts the evidence. I have watched his video. His case would not stand up in court for one second. A reporter is not bias and he is very bias. I have done a better job at researching this then he ever will and the evidence does not support Christ at all. The bible itself proves Jesus was not even real. If actually bothered to do real investigation he would have found this out. I actually wrote an article about Lee and this particular video.
The 4 gospels are full of contradictions. Mark and Luke are copies of Mathew and John tells a very different story. Paul barely refers to Jesus as a man. Throughout history during the time of Jesus there are no other authors that ever wrote about him. You would think that people would have paid attention to the son of god. He is not even mentioned until 80 years later. Remember the bible was written long after Jesus was said to be alive. If you are going to use the bibl as your source before you can do this you have to prove god even exists. The bible saying so is not credible again circular logic. Lance D Fisher March 24 at 11:09am Report
We are at an impasse. I cannot do this with you. I am very sorry that you have these terrible misleading beliefs. You sound very unhappy and frustrated. The enemy (Satan) has gotten you so twisted around that you cannot see the truth. I can only pray for you. I am not dodging anything.
God is your answer my friend. That is all I can offer.
(I find this particularly disturbing as this person has now decided not only that I am wrong but that I am unhappy and frustrated. Can you get any more dishonest in your approach? This person has also decided he knows the truth and that I just cannot see it. Their solution is to pray. This is the out they have given themsleves to justify their dishonesty. In no way do they think they have done anything wrong and have placed all the blame on me. Sad)..
Gary David Currie…………
Wow that is the worst cop out I have ever heard. So know that you are not true to your word. I am sorry that you feel threatened by me. Please Satan come on that is old superstition.
You said; and I quote
“Honestly, I am not. And I would love to speak with you about anything. Completely without judgment or condemnation. Who am I but another man seeking the truth.”
Apparently this was not true. I only ask that when people talk to me that they are truthful and you did not do this based on what you said earlier.
Like I said I am not a jailhouse conversion. it appears you only go after the easy ones who you can influence, No offence this is just based on what you have presented so far. I am not a sheep..
And yes you are dodging.. That is too bad I had high hopes as you said you were seeking truth and started of from a position of honesty.
Also it is not up to you to offer me god that would be his job and again he has failed miserably at it.