Journal Entry #552

September 3rd, 2011

 

I am not a scientist but I at least know the basics if not more so when a person who professes faith declares themselves a scientist I would expect this. The problem when you try and defend your faith with science is that it does not work and you will be practising bad science. This person as I have seen from others has drawn their conclusion of Creation and then tried to fit the chosen evidence in to support it and it doesn’t work that way.

When I heard these types of comments during a discussion I know we are done as this person is either lying by saying they are a scientist or they are practising bad science;

Comments from a Christian, I will post the entire discussion to give it context. I offered plenty of evidence and openings for this person to offer some verifiable evidence. I directed him to credible evidence from credible scientists and still he ignored what as a scientist should be obvious.

I ask that you stay with the conversation as it will be worth it but I always want to present things in context so as not to be accused of quote mining.

-For one evolution is a belief system and not science at all. I am a scientist and I cannot accept it at all.

-But theory and hypothesis is the same and no one has done research on evolution, it was put forward. There is no place it has ever been tested and proved. Unless you do not know what and how research is done.

THE DISCUSSION;

Anna Hazare’s formula for a life that can influence others…

1. Clean words

2. Clean Actions

3. Spotless Character

4. Willingness to take blames

… 5. Sacrifice

Christian……Only ingredient missing is faith in Christ then it would be sweet

Gary David Currie…… Interesting list but I think the most important ideal is missing.

Always acknowledge the truth and how we determine it. Faith in Christ should not even be considered for the list as it has not been confirmed as true.

Christian #2….Hi Gary, after a long time. How u doing? Well, what u say is a point of discussion. What I mean is, its not faith in Christ that is the point of discussion, but your claim that it is ‘not confirmed’ is the point of discussion. Questionable statement.

Christian #3……..Very good question for discussion.

Christian….oh yes. probably Gary is saying it is difficult to know and confirm whether one has faith in Christ. Is it Gary?

Gary David Currie……. that is a great question.. A few thing must be defined first.

What faith is, The meaning of Christ. If we are to follow Gandhi’s example he said truth is the highest ideal one should aspire to.

Christian #1…………meaning of Christ is wrong proposition, Christ is not just word, Christ is Person. Truth about Christ is meaningful. That makes Faith tangible.

Gary David Currie.. I disagree  as Christ will mean many different things to many different people. You are right Christ is more than a word it is also a concept that many have adopted in their life’s to guide them but when you say the truth about Christ is meaningful what does that mean.

Before you can say that faith is tangible you must define faith as based on the definition I use it is not tangible.

Christian……… mmm, good discussion, i think it depends from which angle ones looks at it. is philosophical( I mean raw philosophy where everything has no locus standi) or is it biblical. From biblical point truth and Jesus are the same. Christ can only mean the anointed son of God who came in flesh and died on a cross and rose the third day, he lives in us through the Holy Spirit, he speaks to us and direct us( by us i mean those who have been converted, the disciples of Christ). But philosophical question such as raised by Gary, may be from the context of pluralistic society and pantheism where you can pick any body and make him/it your god can be difficult. Faith is also , in biblical context is just trust, confidence in God or Jesus.

Gary David Currie…. Interesting  but I think you are missing a huge problem when you use a biblical argument and I will post one of my articles to demonstrate… You see the main core of any structure should be truth and religion as a basis for truth in my opinion fails every time.

http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=5447  Who Hijacked Reality / #547 Creating your own religion, it happens all the time.

You see if one beliefs that god is real then things like pantheism also become legitimate when the evidence tells us that these are al l just manmade concepts. I chose the angle of truth to look at this otherwise we are lost in speculation.

 

The actual meaning of faith is to believe something to be true without any evidence and this does not happen in religion or with god as it is selected evidence that is used to determine the belief.

If there is one thing that is consistent even though many will tell me I am wrong within those that are believers is that they just can’t seem to come to a consensus of what they believe.

Gary David Currie….. I would certainly challenge your statement the truth and Jesus are the same.

Here is where the fun begins…………………………….

Christian…..The problem with your view Gary is that it is anti-religion. The basis of faith for me is not what you define it to be. Faith cannot believe something without evidence, which would not be Christian faith. And at no point can one create his or her religion, unless it is cult as we know it. Basic questions first, how did you come to exist? How did human beings and the world come to be?

Gary David Currie…… There is no problem there is only what is true and my view is not anti religion that is a ridiculous thing to say I am pro truth.. I acknowledge what is real and verifiable not what I believe to be true. You do not have faith you have a belief which is based on evidence all be it bad evidence as far as the testing methods go for determining truth. Of course one can create a religion it happens all the time as each person interprets things differently I offered you proof of this right in the article to deny this is silly. also that is why like I said there are 38,000 registered denominations of Christianity alone so did these people who started each denomination not create their own version of their god? Of course they did.

 Christian faith is always defined by each Christian as the correct faith and yet there are so many versions of this faith. Look up what the word religion actually means as there are several definitions.

 

Basic question #1; my mother and father conceived me.

 

Second question; Answer human beings through evolution, the world through the evolution of the universe. This is a fact not a speculation.

 

What you really mean is called the first cause argument

And it is a terrible argument for god as now you must define and prove your god meaning a believers god is real. Also you will have to prove where go came from.

 

We don’t know what went bang and until we do it will be an unknown but one cannot insert their favourite answer here and say it is true unless they have incredible evidence to back it up. That is called the argument from ignorance

 

I really don’t want o go into these well refuted arguments for the existence of god.

 

I only acknowledge what is true as again I am all about the truth as all should be.

Christian……….ok, so on what ground do you say something is true? From your argument, nothing is really true. For one evolution is a belief system and not science at all. I am a scientist and i cannot accept it at all, unless you tell me about the assumptions made, explain the gaps as so on. It is not based on science, in other words, it requires faith to believe in evolution, and so create your god. Denomination in Christianity do not belief in different gods my dear, they just happen to do things differently but God is the same. If it is different god then it is called a cult. But tell me how you arrive at truth first and dismiss your evolution issue, it is based on faith, no prove has come forth.

Gary David Currie …….. . NO evolution is not a belief system this is simply something those of faith say to deny it. It is fact accepted by 99.87% of scientists in the world and to deny this is ignorance. I mean no offence but that is jus the way it is. If …you are a scientist and do not accept evolution you are denying the process of science. If I have to explain this to you when almost all of your colleagues in the world agree it is a fact then you really are missing the point of science.

 

You should know as a scientist that it is all based on probabilities and not absolutes.

You’re kidding right when you say there has been no proof put forth on evolution. You literally must be joking.

 

As a scientist if you deny evolution as a fact our conversation will be tainted if we talk about anything else. Here I will link an article I wrote to demonstrate how science works since you seem to be ignoring the process.

http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=3257 Who Hijacked Reality / #323 I love the baloney detection kit. «

http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=5269    Who Hijacked Reality / #527 Back to the basics, how do we determine what is true?

Ok this seems to be the fundamental problem that I see in humanity. I think the vast majority of people understand the process without acknowledging it but tend to ignore it when it should be used on something they want to believe to be true even though the method we use to determine truth verifies

Christian………Gary, Evolution is a theory; if you know science, they begin with a theory, which is belief, and then they test it. The probability comes from data, not from philosophy. So when you say 99% accept, when you did the research, if they do, they do base on their faith of denying the creation theory. Mind you they are both theory, one is meant to deny God exist and that is the one you love. If you have ever done research, you will know what I am talking about

Christian………Gary , I wonder whether you have done research , you will begin to understand what I am telling you. Those who want to ignore God, behave and conduct themselves the way you do. But if there is any iota of science in you, tell me, any research done to proof evolution

Gary David Currie ….. that is incorrect they do not begin with a theory they begin with a hypothesis. A theory in Science is a well established set of facts that support a conclusion. Evolution has been well tested over the last 160 years and has passed every time.

 

Creation does not even qualify as a theory it is biblical story telling with no evidence to support it. Where do you get these terms faith in deny creation that is just silly. One is not means to deny god it is has nothing to do with god only religious people have decided that. It is the explanation of our origins established through rigorous scientific testing. Look believe in creation if you want to but please don’t call it true as there is no evidence to support it.

 

I am not going to debate this topic with you as it is well established that evolution is a fact.

 

I have done plenty of research as verified by over 550 articles on my website as a start.

Gary David Currie….. I am not ignoring god again that is silly.. I just do not accept it as true as there is no good reason to, Look again evolution is well documented and proven, to deny it is just ignorance especially if you call yourself a scientist then you are practising bad science. Take offence if you want to. MY website has plenty of articles and supported evidence to verify this, besides any credible scientist accepts this as fact. I will take their word over any preacher any day.

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s47ArcQL-XQ

50 Renowned Academics Speaking About God

Christian………. Gary I take no offence, I think I understand where you are coming from. But theory and hypothesis is the same and no one has done research on evolution, it was put forward. There is no place it has ever been tested and proved. Unless you do not know what and how research is done. The levels of evidence range from 1-5, I think evolution may not be in any level at all because there is no expert here. Darwin was hypothesizing, which is similar to theory my friend. Do your backs check. Your website is full of hypothesis and theories with no proof at all and that is not acceptable.

Gary David Currie …. you have just said that 1,000′s of scientists have not done legitimate work in their field. I really do not have time to talk to people who deny fact especially if they call themselves scientists. All you are trying to do is ignore reality, enjoy yourself. You can still believe in your god while realizing that evolution is a fact. Creationism is a dying breed.

Evolution is the basis of so much science that again to deny this is insane.

Basic science for you …

http://physics.about.com/od/physics101thebasics/a/hypothesis.htm

Information on formulating a scientific hypothesis. Here you will also find discussions of models, theories, and laws, as well as the differences between them.

Gary David Currie …… Darwin was 160 years ago I think the theory has been well solidified since then.

Gary David Currie……

I’ll try one more time and if you truly are a scientist you will see that this is how science works;

https://www.facebook.com/libraryofevolution?ref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/libraryofevolution?ref=ts#!/notes/the-library-of-evolution/the-library-of-evolution/178638248876175

Delivering authentic and accurate information about the theory of evolution, presenting facts, refuting creationist arguments, clearing the common misconceptions about evolution and providing sources for further reading about the topic.

Christian………..it is difficult to get this going. But I pray your eyes will be open, 160 years cannot compare to 4000 years and above if number of years were important. your argument are not scientific at all, as such I , the fact that you have some 1000 …scientist doing shoddy job does not make it right and will never make it. What makes result right is the level of evidence used not the number of scientist thinking so. That is the lowest level

Gary David Currie………. Good luck with your beliefs. I aspire to acknowledge truth no matter what it is. You will have your own agenda which is of course your right. You can pray for me all you want to there are many that say they will and still the truth remains the same. I am sorry that you do not realize how science and reason works as you try and fit them into your beliefs. I work the other way around as I let the evidence speak, all the evidence.

Christian…………ok. I see you do not want to know truth , you have a fixed mind. I ask you again, how do you arrive at truth? from your view you must always research. I you agree with theory? How was the theory developed? How was data collected? how was it analyst?

Gary David Currie……  the truth is that we cannot talk as you simply deny what si actually true. If you have gone to my website you will plainly see how I arrive at truth. I am not going to debate evolution with you as this is well established as true unless you have some verifiable evidence to prove creation there is no point. Look I have talked with many and you are saying what all deniers of verifiable evidence say so my time is incredibly valuable and I am done wasting it here. Like I said good luck.

Science without the basics is bad science….

Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie