Posts Tagged ‘circular logic’

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Who Hijacked Reality / #615 Science is a method for determining truth folks not the results.

Wednesday, November 16th, 2011

 

 

 

Journal Entry #615

November 16th, 2011

I have lately heard a rise in the excuse from the faithful and others that science just can’t explain everything, that there are some things science just can’t answer or that it is just one way of determining things as true. I call bullshit on this one and really am sick and tire of hearing this nonsense.

People seem to confuse the fact that just because we have not answered everything does not mean we do not have a means to do so and if we live long enough that we cannot answer  the questions we ask. In order to do this though we need a method to ask the questions and determine if it is true and science gives us this method.

I have asked many who dispute this method to offer me another method that works on all things as science does and so far nothing in fact most answers fall right in line with the scientific method but they refuse to accept this. Why because it will then show them that what they believe is probably not true and we can’t have that now can we. I mean who really wants the truth.

The method may not be perfect but it is as close as we can get right now. It is self correcting and stands up to its own tests. Now I have been told that this is circular logic or self verifying but the difference is we can see it work on so many other things which just adds to the evidence that it works.

People use it every day in all aspects of their lives and yet refuse the validity of it at times. This makes no sense to me.

This is a direct quote from Christopher DiCarlo’s new book “How to be a really good pain in the Ass”

http://cdicarlo.com

http://bibliophilica.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/new-book-christopher-dicarlos-how-to-become-a-really-good-pain-in-the-ass

Here is the Scientific method so we are clear;

1. We often first make an observation of something that has happened.

2. We then consider what caused this thing to happen by posing an educated guess or hypothesis.

3. we can then make predictions about what we should expect to see if our hypothesis is correct.

4. If necessary, experimentation and data collection may be conducted.

5. Further observation is necessary, which will lead to 3 possible outcomes..

a )If we observe that our data positively supports our prediction, then we have hypothesis confirmation..(at least for now)

b) If we observe that our data do not support our prediction, then we have hypothesis falsification and we may be forced to either give up or modify our hypothesis.

c) If there are simply not enough data to decide either way, then we suspend judgement.

6. Finally we need to consider whether there are any other competing hypothesis that provide an equally plausible or likely explanation for our observation. If there are we need to ask ourselves which seems more reasonable. If there are no others, then we may decide to tentatively to accept the hypothesis based on the currently available information.

If we cannot agree on this then we truly are fucked….

I cannot make it any clearer. This is how we determine everything and if you deny this then well what can I say…

We all seem to like to add our little twist and opinion but this is well established and really just needs to be accepted for us to a have a realistic common ground to work from.

The excuses are running very thin folks, the time is nearing when believers will be in the minority as the internet opens up the world god will have no place to hide. Things believed that are unseen and without proof are in the realm of fantasy and secrets.

Science works as a method and has been working for a very long time so again I offer this challenge;

If anyone can show me and prove to me that they have a better method for determining truth on all things then please tell me about it and we will see if it works, if not just accept the scientific method as valid. There is plenty of room from this to argue and dispute many of the findings and plenty more things yet to discover.

Science rocks..

Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie

 

 

 

 

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Who Hijacked Reality / #424 The legitimacy of the bible.

Wednesday, April 27th, 2011

 

Journal Entry #424

April 27th, 2011

If god wrote the bible should it not be in first person? Should it not say ” I created”?
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
If god inspired the bible then there really is no reason to take it as his word as it will be completely open to interpretation.
If man wrote the bible then really who gives a shit.

The bible is the cornerstone of Christianity just as any holy book is for the religion it represents so depending on how one legitimizes its authority will dictate how they follow the rules of the religion. So everything depends on these books being the authorative word of the god they represent. 

I will focus on the bible which I do not give legitimacy for a very simple reason it has not in any way been proven to be the word of god.

Unless it can be proven that god actually wrote the bible himself than it will not be the word of god. Even then one must also prove that god is actually real. The bible as it is written is self fulfilling circular logic.

Ok so if it is not written by god which should actually be easy for god just a snap of the fingers and there you go, also he could easily update it at the very least every year. Where would the mystery be then? Without the mystery there is no god.

Now we are left with one other option no matter how you slice it, you can say it was inspired, divine or commanded by god but it will still be written buy man which gives it absolutely no legitimacy as the word of god. Once the bible is framed in this light there is nothing special about it at all. Just another book in fact not even a very good one. All the verifiable evidence points to this as a book written by men of their time describing the human condition of their time. While it may be interesting to historians beyond that no one really would care. It is only because people want the magical goodies that is valued as a special book.

Even if it was written by god we would then have to learn to read it in the language of god and no matter how you look at it each individual will interpret it as they see fit. Continuity will always be a problem.  Even know when I discuss this with Christians and I point out that it is all subjective we run into the problem of each person believing they are the true Christian and they have the right interpretation of it but of course no one will ever really know. It is all subjective and always will be.

The bible has no legitimacy as the word of god. It is just a book written by many authors full of stories that while some may call interesting I think they really are boring. There is so much literature that I would consider far above the bible. Why we follow something written 1800 years ago is beyond me.

I find understanding and learning about evolution far more interesting than the creation story / myth presented in the bible. If I want magic I will watch a great movie. I would rather read Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit any day over the bible and when I do I realize that it is just fantasy but good fantasy because it takes me away while I am reading it. The bible does not do this for me in fact every moment reading it is agonizing. I only read it because it is important for me to be aware of what it is people go all nuts for.

Besides the fact that god probably does not exist if he did I would certainly expect him the most powerful being ever to write a much better book.

I suggest you pick up another book because the bible is

BORING

Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie

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Who Hijacked Reality / #419 More Short insights.

Friday, April 22nd, 2011

 

Journal Entry #419

April 22nd, 2011

This has been one of those days where people have just said the most ridiculous things and engaged in all sorts of drama. Now I am not interested in this at all. My personal life does not involve this butI do accept that at times it will be necessary to deal with this in the pursuit of promoting positive communication and challenging the claims of the day but I can only address this so much and then people are on their own. I really am not into drama it just sucks the life out of people.

Here are some of my face book posts which feature shorter insights;

- Being passionate about something is very different than being upset or getting offended.

- I keep being told I am misquoting the bible. I find this rather funny as everyone offers their own interpretation as right but will not accept another. Until god comes down and verifies it is a book of fantasy in regards to gods Authority.

- This is a beautiful example of circular logic;

Romans 1:20

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

- If belief and faith decided what was true wouldn’t we all be rich, beautiful, young and all have superpowers?

- If you are going to defend anything from the bible as true especially using the bible as your defense you are going to first have to prove god is real otherwise it is all circular logic. The god says so defense is actually pathetic….

- I guess he did not keep this promise now did he..

Psalm 121: 7, 8

7 The Lord will protect you from all harm; He will protect your life. 8 The Lord will protect your coming and going both now and forever.

- Here’s a thought if people could not read in the days of Moses how did he knew what was written on the tablets of the 10 commandments. Even if he did everyone else would have to take his word for it. What language did god write in and did anyone actually understand it? 

-if god can answer all questions can he tell me right now how many birds are in flight around the earth right now? Is the answer in the bible?

- People are constantly calling my belief system flawed. My beliefs fall in line with people like Gandhi, Mandela & the Dalai Lama. The flaw they are referring to is that I do not assign what I believe to an imaginary god and that is where they think it is flawed. I actually like to take credit for being what I consider a good human being.

- Ok so I am a little sick of this idea that god answered my prayers or helped me and this is proof of god as this completely contradicts the idea that god is not allowed to interfere. You can’t have it both ways people you claim free will but then you also claim gods interference which negates free will. Whatever problem god fixed for you he also caused so fantasy your way out of this dilemma.

- Amidst the chaos and violence of this world there are those moments that will take your breath away. Be open and ready for those moments as they are few and far between.

- Here is why science / reason are not compatible with religion / spirituality. Once science figures out an answer that is claimed in the realm of spirituality it is no longer spiritual and in the realm of mystery. That is what science does seek the answers and then confirms them. It is all in the realm of mystery until we know then it just is.

- Delusional thinking.. so what is the difference between this and being told you can buy a spot in heaven?

- I see a new category for Christians now.

“Born again spirit filled Christian”

What’s next? They keep dividing like a cell.

- I find it funny that when I mention the word god that people only think of their particular god. If I say faith they think of their particular faith. If I say religion they think of their particular religion. When really with so many faiths, gods and religions they really are a small minority and yet beyond a shadow of a doubt think they are right.

- Delusional thinking is an epidemic that is the root cause of almost all of our manmade problems from politics to conspiracy theories humanity thrives on it.

- The moment you truly begin to question your god is the moment the illusion is broken. The hard part after this is where to go in your life as usually everything you do will be associated with your beliefs including your family, social life and your identity. This is the real struggle for most people not whether god is real or not.

Well these are just of few of my thoughts in the last few weeks beyond my articles and discussions. Hope you found something interesting here.

Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie

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Who Hijacked Reality / #379 Invincible ignorance / Appeal to the stone.

Monday, March 14th, 2011

 

Journal Entry #379

March 14th, 2011

I heard a term today that just summed up the vast majority of discussions that I have with the faithful but can actually be applied to any form of delusion, invincible ignorance. It is also called; Argumentum ad lapidem translated as appeal to the stone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_lapidem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_fallacy

Basically the invincible ignorance fallacy[1] is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given. So how can you argue with someone who falls into this category? You can’t, one is basically wasting their time. 

It has its roots in Catholic theology stating that one will be ignorant unless they have heard the Christian message. It has also been said to me that once they find out I am not a Christian and I am an atheist that I could never understand what they are offering me until I accept the gift that is offered to me. Basically what this means until I pretend that I believe I will never know what they feel, the wonderful power of god’s love.

Now this is ridiculous and can be applied to anything as a form of verifying it to be true. It can be applied to all gods to all presentations of fantasy but really has nothing to do with what is true. Once you buy into the idea that there really is no credible evidence needed to prove it is true the delusion is complete.

This is another example of circular logic being supported by the belief. If one believes it is true this will verify it is true and you go back and forth between the 2.

Basically they don’t listen, Stick their fingers in their ears and shout la la la la la. I find this terribly sad. To not want to know the truth is to me the saddest thing in the world. Ignorance should only be the starting point to learn to explore to actually find out the truth but I find  this is not the case for so many people.

A typical conversation I have; The original topic was Adam and Eve and the whole garden of Eden nonsense.

Gary David Currie……….. By innocent you mean stupid right. What is the point of going through life not knowing anything or wanting to know. Then to be punished because you wanted to know what was going on. How stupid is god for punishing Adam. This entire concept is just ridiculous..

Christian #2…………this is not about NOT knowing anything or wanting to know..it is about getting them YOUR WAY OR GOD’S WAY..for to know and wanting to know is not evil at all..God gave them HIS WORD of instruction ..but the serpent deceived them by also using the devil’s deceptive word…and that decision made by Adam and Eve> to disobey Gods Word..a choice that altered what could have been the perfect life that was given them to enjoy in that paradise

Gary David Currie…………. Twist it any way you want to it is still a ridiculous concept. There is absolutely no logic or sanity to what you are saying. An all powerful god doesn’t make mistakes right?

How can one enjoy something when they are not aware of the… opposite feeling? What good is love without hate? Ignorance without knowledge and so on? This is where Christianity fails in its design as a control mechanism and faith.

Christian #2………..real Christianity is foolishness to those who are perishing…Jesus and His teaching indeed stirs up people..the highly learned and the highly esteemed people seethe with anger..they hate the teachings of Jesus..and loath His Word…i am not surprised that you feel the same way Gary…

Christian #2………..what would you say about Jesus’ teaching…”LOVE YOUR ENEMIES’ “DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO MISTREAT YOU” …this instructions of Jesus are outrageous…right???…very hard to do and hard to swallow…but you know …Gods wisdom is far greater than human wisdom…Gary..I’m sure u will never understand this coz His Spirit may not be in you…

Christian #1……….Then the point arises “why did God created Man.” Why all this arguments man first Taste and see that the lord is Good..then u will know all the truth..by his spirit….Ask him..in prayer show me the Mysteries…God..

Gary David Currie ….. that has nothing to do with the moral of the garden of Eden story which is what I am referring to. Actually though your answers demonstrate the idea of not addressing the actual problem and pretending ignorance just as the bible would prefer Adam to be.

 I find it funny how none of you are actually willing to question anything but just bow down like robots and pretend ignorance.

Christian #2……u said earlier.. “how stupid is god for punishing Adam”…this is what I am referring to Gary…he was punished not for wanting knowledge..coz wanting it is not bad..etc etc…it is DISOBEDIENCE to God’s Word .His instructions. That made /changed /altered Gods divine plan for them…they committed sin of disobedience..Hence their punishment followed..

Gary David Currie……. Ok let me explain this. How can someone how does not know what the meaning of innocence or disobedient be punished. Would you punish a new born child for touching something they could not understand they were not supposed to touch? That is what is presented here. The only time Adam and Eve new they were not supposed to touch is after they touched.

What god should have done is teach not punish but that would make sense now wouldn’t it.

And then to punish them for eternity through their children and banishment is I would say a little excessive.

Again this is the silliness of this moral. It simply is ridiculous.

Christian #1………..Hey @Gary..ur point is absolute..but we need to remember one thing God didn’t rebuked Adam completely..but he has given another way to fetch life(eternal) thru Jesus..it was his plan after that fruit incident..so after that mankind didn’t followed what god said..becoz of that.. Noah ship incident occurs..then he again remembers the promise.(Gen1:28).then again he goes on following the plan to give the life..so through Jesus we are here..those who believe and follow him. will get the life in heaven…Otherwise death in Hell..

when I come to Ur point innocence or disobedient..God has made us in his own image..we are breathing his own breath of life which he breathed into Adam nostrils..If u think even this is also harsh to you the uttermost thing which he did is by sending his only son for mankind to tell them I still love You..He paid the ransom..Now we are Like the New created Adam..if you think this is also ridiculous..the One thing is “Who we are to Question God he can do anything he likes……

Gary David Currie……….. Yes I do think this is ridiculous and who am I to not question your god. I question all things that is how I learn and discover the truth.

You are saying god screwed up then he is not god now is he.

Look you believe because it makes you feel …good that you get to go to heaven which of course is not real. then you have to follow the rules.

There is no credible evidence for this claim. It has been disproven time and time again and yet people still think that magic is going to happen.

I am amazed daily at people who believe in a god when the truth based on credible evidence and reality says there is no god.

Christian #2……….. ‎@Gary..do you have a Bible and do you read it? There is nothing wrong in questioning things .and to discover things is wise..but there is something grand that you are missing i am sure…Human wisdom cannot grasp what the Bible says..and I’m… sure that your reaction to our so called “insanity” is recorded in the Bible as well..its tells the attitude and motivations of the human heart..you are missing a great deal of precious truth..yours in just truth that is known by the human eye..the Bible leads you to THE TRUTH beyond human knowledge…

Gary David Currie………… Yes I do I have read it through twice , I even have more than one and was able to actually burn one for our music video as artistic creativity,

Of course my reaction is recorded as you see the bible is all about control. Do you actually care about what is true?

I probably know the bible better than the vast majority of Christians. Only 10% have actually read the bible. If you have read it you would know that your god is cruel and sadistic.

Here is my website www.thefreeman.net

I write about this topic all the time and I know what I am talking about.

I am not missing any of the truth in fact the truth is very important to me.

What credible evidence do you have to offer to prove your god is actually real and I have heard most of the offerings before? To this day there is no credible evidence. NONE.

Christian #2…………your existence is one credible evidence…nature, another, etc…for the Bible says all things were created by Him through His Word..You may claim to know the Bible..but knowledge of the Word is not enough…have you obeyed it what it says?….have you forgiven anyone?…have you repented of your sins? have you talked to this God of ours whom you cannot see and asked Him to reveal Himself to u? You see..even the Pharisees are full of knowledge about this God which the Bible says..but even them missed the mark..you can be overflowing with so much knowledge but u still miss the mark…See More

Gary David Currie…………… Sorry that is not credible evidence at all. The rest is just emotional Christian appeal which actually means nothing.

I am just being honest here. I have heard all these attempts at evidence before many times. I actually care about the truth….

Just because the bible says it means nothing. The Quran says it as well.

I am going to stick with all the evidence for evolution on the existence ploy thanks.

You’re going to have to do much better than this to prove your claim. The burden of prove is on you not me.

  • Christian #2………..you do really missed the mark !!!! I do feel sorry for you dear…

Gary David Currie ……Please don`t feel sorry for me because I don`t engage in your delusion. You are practising what I call invincible ignorance. This is where one actually ignores all the evidence and facts to believe what they want to be true.

You have offered… me no good reason to believe your god is real and now you are appealing to emotions. This has nothing to do with what is true..

This is a typical conversation where no matter what I say they will not listen or address anything I offer. It is like talking to a stone.

Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie

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Who Hijacked Reality / #250 What would be credible evidence that god exists?

Thursday, November 11th, 2010

hijacked logo

 

 

 Journal Entry # 250

November 11th, 2010

During my conversations I explain to people that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you claim that your god is real I would like to see the proof.  Now of course they try hard to give me some in the form of testimonials, miracles they have witnessed and even attempts at logical proofs. The bible is often quoted as the ultimate proof for god’s existence. This is circular logic which I have explained in other posts, when all this fails they quickly try to put the burden of prove back to me. I have no problem with this as I am aware that they really have no evidence.

Once we exhaust this approach the next tactic is ; what kind of evidence do you need to convince you that god exists? Here is my response.

First of all the evidence presented has to be testable and verifiable. This of course would only be a start.

I would accept examples of;

Pieces of Noah’s Ark that are verifiable. It does not have to be the entire ark just enough to prove it was real. Just like evolution cannot be demonstrated in its entirety but there is more than enough to verify it as credible.

Jesus or god showing up in front of me right now or anytime and then allowing me a way to verify to others and myself that they were actually there.

An amputee praying for his arm to grow back to god and then the arm growing back. This event must happen more than once and be verifiable by credible sources.

God showing up verifying he is god and then performing a verified miracle on a large scale.

Angels coming down and verifying they are angels.

Why should I accept anything else that is not verifiable or testable as evidence? If there is no proof then even though it might be true, based on all the evidence that disputes the claim there is no good reason to believe it as true.

Now so many others do not require this evidence. They will believe what fits into their desires to be true. This then leads to so many problems as now to keep up the charade and be eligible for the benefits the believer now has to follow the chosen rules of the religion. The books that are followed today, the bible, The Quran and others are dangerous. I urge those who follow religions to actually step back and require proper evidence the same way they do for everything else in their lives.

This list has been around awhile but is worth repeating. It requires exactly the opposite of what I look for in evidence

80914827_386ba87ac7_b

http://theagitatedatheist.blogspot.com/2007/10/top-ten-signs-that-you-are.html

Top Ten Signs That You Are An Unquestioning Christian:

10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.

9- You feel insulted and ‘dehumanized’ when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.

7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the ‘atrocities’ attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in ‘Exodus’ and ordered the

elimination of entire ethnic groups in ‘Joshua’—including women, children, and animals!

6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about god sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who

got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find

nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations

old!

4- You believe that the entire population of this planet wi th the exception of those who share your beliefs—though excluding those in all rival

sects—will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most ‘tolerant’ and ‘loving’.

3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor, speaking in ‘tongues,’ may be all the evidence you need.

2- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history—but still call yourself a “Christian.”

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Evidence for God.

Although many are blissful in the thought of being a sheep I would like to remind them that the sheep always get eaten. Even the Sheppard probably eats the sheep he tends.

I am still waiting for the evidence that they tell me they have. I won’t be holding my breath though.

 Seek the truth always

Gary David Currie

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