Journal Entry #463
June 6th, 2011
There is nothing like reality to demonstrate how delusional people can be. Often I will have a conversation with believers and things are going well at first. We talk about concepts of truth and reality and when it is applied to the rest of their life they understand and agree but then when we come to their belief in their god it always takes a turn back into the delusion. Why is this, because reality and fantasy just don’t mix.
This conversation is a great example of how the delusion controls the thinking, how the desires corrupt reality.
Gary David Currie …………….Wow don’t you just love delusional thinking. Once down the path the pit stops are hard to see.
THEY JUST DON’T LISTEN…..
“I fear the man who believes he has arrived for the destination always changes.” Gary David Currie
Gary David Currie ………….I hope you understand that admitting you might be wrong leads to an open -mind and is the beginning of actually finding the truth..
Christian…………. I love truth whatever it is.
Gary David Currie………. Excellent so now the next step is to agree on the method for determining what is true and use this method on all things. I to love truth as well no matter what it is as I really don’t have a choice even if I think I do.
Christian…………That´s a good to start with. Can we agree that truth is holy?
Gary David Currie ………………No I would not agree to that. Maybe we can start off with the dictionary definition. I will then tell you mine and you yours and we can go from there. Saying truth is holy makes no sense as it only addresses a certain truth all truth. What I need from you to start with is a definition of truth backed up with a method of determining truth that works on all things as this is the foundation to determine truth. All truths. We can even leave religion out of this because if you bring it in then it will have to work on all things not religious.
Christian…….. Ok I agree.
Gary David Currie…………. So give me your definition and your method..
Christian…………..Can we agree that truth is not subjective but same for all people.
Gary David Currie……….. Yes it is the same as there are infinite truths. The definition of truth will not change. Here is mine since you have not offered yours.
Truth is all that is , all that is real.. now show me what method you use to determine truth in all matters, or things in life.
Christian…………Truth is all that is and all that is real. So next definition is what is real? Is it only what we can grasp with our senses or is there something that is true but we don’t know it or can see it?
Christian…………The next interesting question is, IS everything scientifically proved TRUTH?
Gary David Currie ……………you are correct there may be and are probably many things that are real that we have not confirmed as of this point and yes all we have is our sense to verify. But we cannot say something is true until we can verify it
Christian……Is there anything you can think of that is true but is impossible to prove?
Gary David Currie……… yes everything is scientifically proved truth at this point because we really have no other method of verification. Science and reason is the best method. if there is a better method that works on all things I will use it as I only seek what is true.
Christian…………What scientifically is “truth at this point” can change later and be proved to be lie by same method ??
Gary David Currie ……………No because we have no way of saying it is true until we can verify it. we may want it to be true but that is irrelevant. Also and this is very important we must include what we have already verified as true in the process even though at some point it may be proven wrong. The problem is that people take something as true and run with it that has not been verified. For example alien abductions or ancient aliens. Ghosts are another example.
Christian………….I agree. It is not true at this point, even though it is possible. OK.
Gary David Currie………….. I agree it can change but until it does we would be stupid to not follow it as this is what we know at this point. That is what science is all about. Science doesn’t know everything or else it would stop. All science is, is a method we use to determine truth by testing things through various methods to see if they can be proven to not be true.
Gary David Currie ……Now here is the problem if you are referring to gods of man. They may be possible but highly improbable as the evidence to disprove all the evidence to prove god is sound so why still believe in something that is probably not true? Because you want it to be. I appreciate you honesty and willingness to be open-minded at this point I am actually very impressed. I am in no way trying to change your mind that is your choice just talking about truth and how we determine it. This is what I use as a method on all things.
Christian…………I ask again, Is there anything you can think of that is true but is impossible to prove? Something like psychology and feelings, or inner conviction about something, like there must be soothing beyond what we can see or beyond universe and our knowledge.
Gary David Currie……….. Why must there be something is my question? Because we want there to. We can speculate forever on this but what is the point until we can prove it.
We have evidence for feelings that is testable, psychology is a field of science and we have… methods to test things. If there is something we will not find it for a very long time I will speculate so why think there is something there when so much evidence that can be verified says there may not be. Do people worship Dark matter or dark energy?
Christian………….My belief is based on an inner conviction that there is a reality beyond our current comprehension. It is because I felt, or if you want to believe I have experienced this reality as I perceived as more real than this I am in now. There was… a brief moment in my life that was not repeated after that, but it left an impression that made me unable to forget that there was something beyond this reality. This life feels like a illusion In comparison to what I saw and felt. I am aware that everything can also have another explanation, but it made a change in my attitude to life that I cannot change. (Maybe you think I am crazy or disturbed but I am considered as normal and I function as a normal person in all aspects) What I want to say is that I am convinced that there is an parallel reality that I call spiritual reality. I also know that I can never prove anything of it.
Christian………Beyond the words in the Bible I can see this reality. Nothing else but the Bible contains this knowledge I have experienced. Believe me I have also read a lot of books. I have two university degrees, and I have read lot of philosophy and psychology.
Gary David Currie…. ..I have no way of disproving your personal experience nor would I want to. But you have said the important part that you have no way of verifying it. Now I am sure that you understand that there can only be one answer to our origins and to all questions that is going to be true so if all the evidence points away from what you have experienced I don’t understand why you or anyone would accept what is probably not true. This makes no sense to me. I have had personal experiences as well but I do not take that leap into the unknown as true. Here is my problem you have taken you experience and then jumped to all sorts of conclusions. I base this on what you say. You of course realize and again I appreciate your honesty that there is probably another answer besides what you say or see.
Gary David Currie ……..You research is bias from your experience it seems. Spiritual reality has no evidence that can be tested so what you are doing since you have studied philosophy is participating in what is called the argument from ignorance. I say this no…t to insult but out of respect for your acquired knowledge. Step outside your experience and try to disprove it to validate it then we can say there is a basis for your hypothesis but at this point there is not. Reality simply does not work the way you say it does even though it might what we know tells is that is does not.
HERE IS WHERE THE COVERSATION BROKE DOWN…………….
Christian…….Yes you are right, it is not “that” reality like your definition, it is as I said to you a spiritual reality and it is very real for me. Because I have as I call it “Spiritual eyes” I know it is true because it manifests in the same reality you know. It is connected, but not connected in a way you or anyone can figure out. I will give you an example: If you go around and hate most people and complain on most others, it seems for you like it is right to do because you believe it is true what you say, see and think about them. They are bad people. So even if you are right, you will not accomplish anything with that kind of behaviour. What will happened is that you will be depressed, alone, odd, sick, maybe hate by others and similar. This kind of behaviour will even have physical manifestation in your body or around you. This I know is true but no one can prove it will be like that and exactly how it will be in each case. So a specific behaviour will end up in a range of consequences no one knows exactly how but it IS TRUE AND IT WILL NOT BE GOOD. This is just one example of how something can be truth without being possible to prove ever. Another example is. SIN will lead to destruction, I mean who can prove this, “NO ONE” but it is still truth. How do I know? Not because I have read it in the Bible but because I have experienced this under my entire life. And I JUST KNOW, it is TRUTH even if I cannot prove it.
Gary David Currie……… I am sorry but I must be honest with you and tell you that this makes absolutely no sense. If something does not have evidence to take it as true is called the argument from ignorance. I understand your reasoning. You cannot create a new definition of reality and then say it is true.
if we follow this through I must be strong on this point then anything can be true, anything someone feels is true they say can be true. All religions will then be true. All beliefs will be true and this simply is not true. It does not make sense to just feel it or know it because you feel you have experienced it. Let me say that If I say that my experience is the opposite of yours can you dispute my experience? No so we can’t both be right correct? That is why we use credible evidence because personal experience and witnesses are not reliable as forms of evidence. You may be right but all it will be is a guess that has no support and that is a terrible reason to believe something as true.
This is not an example of something being true that can never be proven as all things can eventually be proven or else they are not true.
Again I say this is the argument from ignorance and it is beyond me how intelligent people just go but their gut on things without getting further proof. Your choice though but it probably is not true and if you value what is true you will see this if not you value what you want to be true. Again no offence this is what is true.
You are not acknowledging what we do know; you have ignored all of this in favour of want you feel. So if you are right then I am wrong, the vast majority of scientists are wrong and all the evidence that disputes what you say is wrong. Your experience counts for more than all of this. That makes no sense..
Christian…………Well Gary when you say “no offence this is what is true.” it is to me Pride. Now you claim to know the truth. NO one knows the truth but God “IF he exists” And yes if I am right then all of you are wrong, that is true. Does this make sense .. ?
Gary David Currie ……….No because all the verifiable evidence does not support what you say if it did I would accept is as true. I think you are missing the reasoning behind what I am saying. Why are you right and all other religions wrong if they use the same method , experience that you say is valid. Again this makes no sense. Do you understand what the argument from ignorance is? And yes we do know the truth on many things..
Christian…………Argument from ignorance is what all do including you and scientists.
Christian……yes we do know the truth on many things, but some know more than others
Gary David Currie……….. No wrong again sorry.. The argument from ignorance states that unless you can prove something is not true to me 100% which is impossible I will believe what I want to believe even though it can be proven with a high degree of probability to not be true. What I do and what science does is say I don’t know when we don’t know and not accept it as true especially if there is plenty of evidence to say it is probably not true.
Gary David Currie……….. Knowing more than others will not change the truth on something. You and others ignore so much to fulfill your beliefs. Jana if what you believed had any supporting evidence I would believe it. Again tell me why you don’t believe all others who make similar claims but different gods because there is no evidence that you will accept correct? Now apply that to your god from my perspective and it will be the same conclusion. Why is your experience valid and mine not?
Gary David Currie…………… So why is your inner conviction right and mine or that of others wrong. What basis do you use to refute all others but yours?
Christian……….Because we agreed that there is only ONE truth, and IF my is correct then all of yours is wrong, incorrect. My truth also tells me through the Bible which IS breath of the God by my experience, about all of you and I see how deception works through all of you and then I mean ALL religions including religion Christianity and “religion” Atheism. (For me it is just belief)
Gary David Currie……… Ok but your still missing the huge point.. Knowing what is true is based on a method of discovery and humanities method is verifiable evidence. You use evidence just as much as the next person but your evidence in the case of your god is not verifiable and that is the important part. I will say this again you are just guessing which is what we all do but the idea is to make the best guess we can and that is why we base it on verifiable evidence. Have you put your beliefs to the teat of actually trying to disprove them? This will be the true test.
You think I am all about atheism and I am not I am an atheist by default by seeking what is true not an atheist first. You have put your beliefs before the truth because in all honesty they will not stand up to verification so really you believe solely based on the idea of your desires from the benefits of your belief. My belief is that I find truth.
Gary David Currie……… This whole idea of deception is just silly. Why would I be trying to deceive you? What is my purpose in doing this? That is old barbaric thinking based on control systems from 100′s of years ago. I must admit it really is silly in this day in age to think that there are people who are of the devil who are trying to deceive you into not believing in your god, It is actually paranoid thinking. Think about the time the bible was written in and why it would be beneficial to have this in the bible.
Believe in god if you want to but this silly deception stuff is just out of place in this modern world. This is just another example of why the bible and the beliefs it promotes are of man from 2,000 years ago and have no place in a realistic modern world.
We were actually having a good conversation about ideals and concepts. I was impressed with your willingness to be open so why did you go and bring it to things that just are ridiculous in the real world we live in. Do you really believe in devils and demons? Do you realize the implications behind this belief? Where do they come from? What realm do they exist in? How do they cross over? If they can cross over then why can’t we see evidence of this alternate existence? Why doesn’t god just get rid of them? Are they more powerful than god? If they are then god is not god. Why are they involved in the human world? Do they just run around all day deceiving humans? What is the point? Why have bad spirits and good spirits?
Can you not see the can of worms you have opened here?
Christian ….Lot of questions but there is an answer to each of them.
Gary David Currie ………..We are back to the style from before. I am not doing any of those things. I just speak from an honest realistic position. We were talking about truth but the problem is that you ignored certain things when they contradicted your belief instead of being open-minded all the way through. I told you I am not trying to change your mind I am just talking.
Gary David Currie …………….Well let’s hear the answers to each one of them with proof to back it up otherwise you will just be making it up.
Christian………. Actually a good questions we can take one at a time on my wall. It is deep questions.
Gary David Currie……….. I do understand I just don’t agree and that is the difference between you and me I have taken the time to understand what I refute. You say you have read all these philosophy books but Almost all of them will dispute god, Have you read Hume or Kant?
Gary David Currie………… How about you go back and answer all of the questions I asked before that you ignored first. You still have not answered the most important one and that is what method do you use to determine truth?
Christian………All of those men where just neurotics. Most of them where Demon lead or demon possessed.
Gary David Currie………… And still after all these philosophers you still accept something that cannot be proven as true? You still think that the bible is written by god and not man? You still believe in demons? Are you aware of existentialism? Have you explored all ideas on god? Have you studies evolution?
Gary David Currie…………………. I guess we are done if you belie in demons You have moved into an area I am not willing to follow as it is just plain silly? Really demons come on that is ridiculous and you can’t be serious?
Christian……..There is no method to determine truth. Truth is Jesus Christ and all these men you are talking about, how can they make a method to determine anything about God. That is silly. They are just mere men.
Christian…………You don´t know what demons are, you think it is Hollywood bogyman. That is ridiculous, so you are deceived to not see the true evil inside the people.
Christian………You actually don´t have to have the spiritual eyes to see demon influence on people. You will see that, that is one thing I can promise you.
Gary David Currie …………….Yes there is and it is called science. Ok Jana you are lost then in the delusion. You cannot mix reality with insanity. What else can I say you have jumped off the deep end and then you wonder why people ridicule you as you say? I am done it was interesting for awhile but now it is not . I do not jump into the delusion with those who are inside it. Enjoy.. You showed moments of sanity. Perhaps we will talk again someday when you can stay in reality a little longer.
Christian……………… You are lost then in the delusion, you don´t see obvious things around you. You need proof for everything. Do you need a proof that you exist?
Gary David Currie…….. yes don’t you?
Christian…………….It is not polite to call people crazy even if They were, especially if they were, and if I am insane with two university degrees What makes it you and lot of others without education at all? That is lack of love, what is the point of seeking the truth when you lack the love. What will you do with your truth?
Christian………….. I know very much about science, more than you think. I am just talking to you in hope of opening your eyes to something greater than you can see now.
Gary David Currie……………. And that is you problem the idea that you feel you will open my eyes and that you are right whereas I am just talking with no expectation of opening your eyes as only you can do that. You know Jana you have never asked me about my experiences in religion, what I believe and why. Have you tried to understand what I present and why without bias? Personally I think you are so busy trying to show me how right you are that it will not allow you to understand my perspective. You have no idea what I have seen or ho I really am and I have no intention of sharing my personal life on the internet and that is why I talk about concepts and ideals. If you really knew about science I think I would have seen some of it in our discussions. Those who truly understand science don’t generally believe in gods or anything else unproven.
I hope you enjoyed the conversation and keep your eyes open for demons.
Seek the truth always
Gary David Currie