Journal Entry #353
February 17th, 2011
The challenge in discussing religion / faith / gods is to try and find a different way each time to basically say the same thing. It always seems to boil down to reason vs. Faith as there to this moment in my opinion no verifiable or credible evidence for the existence of the gods of man. What we are looking at is why a person believes in their chosen god even though the evidence clearly if we are to accept the idea of reason demonstrates that there probably is no god.
I recently through a discussion saw the analogy of music as a great example to demonstrate the differences. As a musician, songwriter, artist and many other titles in this related area I feel I have as many others do firsthand experience and a little more knowledge than the average person in this area.
My basic problem with the faithful is that they dispute reason / logic when it does not fit it with their beliefs and generally will not acknowledge that they use it all the time but stop where it becomes a deterrent to their god. Have you ever heard the phrase “everything happens for a reason”. Well I agree with this but the difference is if I know the reason I assign it if I do not I say I don’t know. Others will fill in the blank with what feels good to them to explain it even though it cannot be verified.
This for me sums up the faithful position; as said to me by a Christian.
In regards to “directing” the flow of conversation, we are equally guilty. Keep in mind, that you assume just as much as anyone that you are “right” in your beliefs. Because your beliefs cannot “handle” our beliefs, you label them as fantasy, etc., You resort to the “science” and proof excuse.
They see reason as a negative. To say that I resort to science and proof as an excuse is absurd. To say I cannot handle their beliefs is also absurd. What they really mean is I will not join in on the delusion of pretending something is true when it cannot be verified. I base if I am right or not on things that can be proven or not proven not what I want to be true. I get a little sick and tired of people expecting me to just believe in something they have no proof for and I tried to demonstrate the absolute flaws in this faith based argument by claiming I was Jesus but this still did not get the message across. . See the previous 3 posts as a reference.
http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=3502 Who Hijacked Reality / #350 What if I am Jesus? How will you know?
http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=3516 Who Hijacked Reality / #351 Just have a little faith I am Jesus.
http://thefreeman.net/journal/?p=3526 Who Hijacked Reality / #352 My claim of being Jesus and why I did it, could it be true?
Now to present the music analogy;
I posted this after the discussion below it; The Christian I was talking to owns a music store and is what I consider an expert in the area of digital recording thus my reference to his business being based on logic.
Gary David Currie
I think this will sum up my position and yours. Music is a great analogy.We have established that there are patterns in music but at a certain point there is a mystery or soul as you call it to the playing.
Here is the difference between you and I in my opinion and the basis for what we talk about and the wall we hit all the time. I am more than willing to let it remain a mystery until we figure it out one day and that will not diminish the beauty of it for me.You on the other hand have assigned the mystery a value and decided that you know what it is without a doubt.
1. My business is based on logic? I don’t know about that… there are plenty of illogical elements in any small business! Opening a small business in the first place is arguably not “logical”!
Is it logical that a 60 year old condenser …microphone is considered awesome and far more desirable than most new ones?
Many instruments are not particularly “logical” in their construction or playing techniques required….
Many things are subjective preferences, instead of “logical”.
2. God created us to “enjoy” each other, to be close to Him, to worship…. God gave us the ability to learn, to be creative, to choose.
God did not create the “method” the disprove Himself — he gave you the option to reject him. You are choosing to reject God, by limiting the criteria that you choose to accept. You are following an outlook that DOES NOT permit the existence of God.
Gary David Currie……
SO you say I say different. You reject my evidence and go on faith. Of course things are based on logic.
Music is all patterns and that is logic. computers are patterns again logic..
You have no basis but your assumption from the bible for …your last statement.
You contradict yourself if god created me then I am following what he created.
• What you are talking about in music is “structure” / “order”
Predictability is actually NOT exciting in music, is it?
”The “rebel”, the “trend-setter”, the unique / signature (shocking / unexpected) elements are actually what take the “…logical” 12 – tones in our scale and make it something EXCITING! Dynamics / interesting sounds.
What you are describing is Elevator Music.
<if god created me then I am following what he created.>
Gary, now you are abandoning responsibility and blaming God.
You are doing what you want, that is your choice. You seem to think that God can only exist IF He disallows choice and intervenes in human affairs directly, constantly, incessantly….
This product is called LOGIC STUDIO not FAITH STUDIO, I wonder why..
Gary David Currie…..
Not at all it is still all patterns no matter what you do with them..
I am not blaming god for anything I don’t believe in god that is you.
This is all based on the idea that you have not yet acknowledged as true or false in your beliefs and we can go from there.
Is god all powerful, omnipotent or not?
1. Gary, I think you’re still missing the point about music! Patterns aren’t “exciting”, unexpected things are. Just because you have a knowledge of musical theory, doesn’t make you interesting as a performer or composer.
More “logic” does not produce more compelling music.
2. Have you ever blamed God for anything?
3. Is God all powerful / omnipotent? Are we heading into the “Omnipotence Paradox” here? This has been answered in many different ways by people that have given it much thought. God is simply too far beyond us to be completely quantified by human observation and knowledge.
Gary David Currie…….
1. I am not missing the point. Maybe patterns are not exciting to you but they might be to someone else. Even if it is unexpected it is still a combination of patterns that are put together as a performer. how you feel about it will not …change this as your feelings are a combination of patterns as well. We all just like the mystery in it but once understood that is what it is.
2. yes when I believed in god but when I realized how silly this actually is has not happened since. I have also blamed the universe and chance and luck and of course they are all only concepts that I have no control over.
3. you still have not answered the question directly yes or no, being ambiguous on the matter or avoiding it by stating that god is beyond or understanding will not change if he is or not. If he is he who cannot be wrong I would think that you would say he is all powerful.
Your answer is simply ridiculous as you have created a concept of god that requires us to acknowledge him as something so much greater than us without any evidence what so ever. I can apply this to anything we do not understand and if you believe it to be true then in your eyes it will appear this way.
I think you avoid this because either answer produces a false god and you just want to keep your god on that pedestal.
1. You seem to be switching terminology/intention here (or using some words in a very broad sense). Of course there is an order / structure to music. What I am writing is that “within musical form”, that there isn’t a “logical” hit, appealing song computer that puts to shame the best human decisions. I guess you are trying to take the “soul” out of music.
God is himself “creative” and fashioned “creative beings” — that is presumably why we have such a passion for the arts. God put Adam to work rather quickly.
2. Thanks for your answer. (I do mean that sincerely)
3. Gary, I will be happy to answer your question when it is put within the context of some stated “problem”. I assume you are trying to get into the “logical” paradox of “create a rock too big too lift”. That has been discussed so many times by people willing to waste time on it.
In the interest of answering the question, perhaps my favourite response is:
God the father can make a rock too heavy for Jesus (God the Son, manifested in the flesh) to lift.
4. No pedestal is sufficient for God, hence — no idols or graven images are allowed.
Gary David Currie…….
Well isn’t this the perfect analogy for our discussion.
Thanks for the bible story
You see I believe soul is an expression of all the patterns of music and human but still understandable if one wants to take the time to do it. You will not take the time to understand it and call it soul. I love the soul in music but it is not a mystery just like god is not a mystery.
Once again we are back to the main problem which is that all you believe is based on the bible and so you will reference it and I believe in reality and count the bible as a story book written by man. Your proof is the bible which is circular logic and you will not accept anything I offer.
You quote god like he is real but really have no proof that he is.
You think I am trying to take the soul out of music and I say you can’t learn music with only soul and that soul comes from so many things other than music that are all patterns. We actually think in patterns… Where is the soul in math?
So how far can we take this analogy? Can we consider the various great musicians such as Beethoven, Mozart, Hendrix and anyone else to be different gods? Just because we do not understand something right now do we have the right to just create an answer and call it true?
I love music it is my passion and there are moments of creativity that I have no immediate explanation for but I will not assign it something not knowing. If we learn by reason in the first place it will stand to reason that this process will continue on even when it appears magical. It may appear that one is playing by feel or that one has soul but there is a reasonable explanation for this if one wants to explore and find it.
I right now just chose to enjoy the process while understanding that the mystery is not attributed to let’s say the guiding hand of Jimi Hendrix. I am not channelling any unseen force. I have no idea why some people are just natural musicians and others can’t play or sing a tune to save their life but I am confident that no god divinely chose to inspire them and not others.
The mystery is only mystery until we find the answer that is true and sometimes the idea is to just enjoy the mystery and not complicate it.