Journal Entry #475
June 18th, 2011
I am sure it is obvious to most people that the key to human interaction being constructive is having good communication skills. When debating or discussing an issue it is vital that people follow a basic set of rules. I personally rarely see this happen. I often become the focus of discussion instead of the actual topic. I will post a set of rules that when followed allow for excellent discussion and we must discuss the issues that we face in order for things to improve. I have written about many of the tactics people use to avid proper discussion but at this time I feel posting a discussion I had today will serve as the best example to get my point across.
I will post the rules in a picture format. These rules are valid and important for all discussion that we face. I am not referring to basic small talk but anytime we get involved in talking about issues or concepts it is vital we follow them. So many engage in what I call drama to avoid the topic.
You tell me if I am off base here. I tried to bring the discussion back on point but it never seems to get there. This type of flow is all too common in our daily discourse. At times I feel I am forced to address what people are doing in a conversation to try and bring it back on track but most often this only fuels the redirection even more.
This is a long post so be warned……
Click on picture to see clearly..
Original post;
Bob Dobbs
Conservatives want to kill social services. If they succeed, they will hide in their gated communities and let us care for the sick, orphaned and elderly on our own.
Or we can sit and watch them die in the streets.
Either way, the rich won’t help. That is how they got rich: By not giving their money away.
Gary David Currie………… Personally I am sick of those without blaming those with for their problems. That is exactly why they are without. Take responsibility for your situation as you are the one that got yourself in it and do something about it.
Sure there are issues that need to be addressed but this whole jealousy thing is not working. The blame game solves nothing.
Person…………Gary- Are you poor? How do you know how a poor person “got” that way? You make this insane, broad generalization, you cast blame, then you say the blame game solves nothing. Are you not reading your own post as you write it?
Gary David Currie …..A_____ did you read my post. I only said that each person is responsible for their own actions and situation. What I am has nothing to do with it. Why is my comment insane? I did not cast blame I actually said that people should stop blaming others for their plight. Yes the blame game does solve nothing. Solution orientated thinking is the key. A____ address my comments in a fashion that allows me to respond and do not focus on me personally.
Person………….You know what? When you stop contradicting yourself, within the same post, and start making sense, I’ll do that. (whatever it is you wanted me to do) You DID cast blame, in saying that being jealous and blaming the rich is how poor people G…OT poor. You presumably are NOT, because you don’t hesitate to blame poor people for their situation, when you have no way of knowing how they got that way. Your comment is insane, because it’s a generalization of such a broad scope, that it’s impossible that it could be accurate. Finally, you tell me to address your comments, but you don’t want me to focus on you. Okay, how do I address anything you say without at least SOME level of focus on you? In removing all focus on you, I stop reading your posts. You need to stop and think about what you’re saying, instead of hiding behind your line of crap.
Z____…….. How does one get rich? By not spending your own money. It’s that simple. And Gary, the blame game does work, once you figure out the parameters. The rich pay far less in taxes now than they ever did under Reagan, who the Republicans worship as a god. the only thing Reagan did for them was the same thing the national Socialist party did, got rid of trade unions.
Gary David Currie………. Z_____ I am not American and don’t care about your politics. I focus on the overall picture that can be applied everywhere.
Z____……. Well Gary, as an American, I only have one thing to say to you, STFU.
Gary David Currie ………A____ again you are focusing on me personally. Why does this happen so often? Can people not address an issue instead of the one talking about the issue. Focus on me with the optimal word being personal. Asking me about my financial situation has no bearing on the topic.
Gary David Currie……………. A typical American arrogant comment Z____. Way to represent..
Person…………Yet another ridiculous, WAY too broad generalization. Way to go, Gary!
Person…………..Secondly, I did focus on your comment. I made a passing comment, in the midst of a long post about YOU, but the rest of my comment was based entirely on showing you where your argument holds no water, and makes no sense. You ignore my entire comment, aside from that one reference. There’s good debating!
Gary David Currie……….. Again making me the topic. Try asking some questions instead to try and figure out my position. If you say I am generalizing ask me to be more specific and define the area you want specifics in. There are rules for discussion in life people.
Person………….. I’m not going to ask you to clarify a stupid insult. All that does is set the stage for you to make a more specific insult. Stop acting like you’re so much better than everybody else, and stand behind your comments for a change.
Gary David Currie………….. Tell me why my line of crap is and why it is a line of crap? We can start there.
Gary David Currie…………… Again I try and get back to the issue and I still seem to be the issue.
Person…………….I just finished doing that, in the post you essentially ignored.
Gary David Currie …………Well tell me again then be specific. What is it you don’t like and why am I wrong?
Person…………….WAAAAAHHHHH! Poor me!!!! You people are all SHIT, but I’M the one being picked on!!!
Gary David Currie………… Are you done yet? or do you still have some more venting to do?
Person……………I’m not venting. If I were, there would be a LOT more animosity, a LOT more vitriol, and a LOT more VERY personal comments.
Gary David Currie………… I don’t do drama people? So give it all to me and get it all out of your systems. There is nothing you can say that I will take offence to.
Person…………You want to know what I dislike, and why? Read my previous post, where I laid it all out.
Gary David Currie……….. Exactly which post? Your previous post says you’re not venting. Can we just start again?
T________………Wow, there was a real discussion somewhere here. Now it’s a childish mud sling.
Also, disagree with Gary’s position all you like, “STFU” is an impossibly weak stance to take in a debate.
Person…..what? I’ll paste TWO! If you still don’t get it, I’m done with you.
#1~You know what? When you stop contradicting yourself, within the same post, and start making sense, I’ll do that. (whatever it is you wanted me to do) You DID cast …blame, in saying that being jealous and blaming the rich is how poor people G…OT poor. You presumably are NOT, because you don’t hesitate to blame poor people for their situation, when you have no way of knowing how they got that way. Your comment is insane, because it’s a generalization of such a broad scope, that it’s impossible that it could be accurate. Finally, you tell me to address your comments, but you don’t want me to focus on you. Okay, how do I address anything you say without at least SOME level of focus on you? In removing all focus on you, I stop reading your posts. You need to stop and think about what you’re saying, instead of hiding behind your line of crap.
Person…………Don’t worry, T____, we may get back to the debate, sooner or later.
Z____………. I love it when non-Americans call me a typical American. Their arrogance in expressing my assumed arrogance is so refreshing, and here I thought only Americans were assholes. Way to represent whatever country it is you represent Gary. You have reaffirmed my faith in human stupidity.
Gary David Currie………. A____ this is making me the issue that is what I said. Tell me what my contradiction is. Yes if you do not take responsibility for your actions and blame others for your situation this will be reason for your situation as you are responsible to change it not others. As long as one continues to blame then they are not looking for reasonable solutions.. I do not blame poor people for their situation in the sense that your are referring I am merely pointing out that it is their responsibility for their situation. Are we going to get hung up on the meaning of blame here? It means to assign fault for a situation. I am saying that each person is responsible for their own situation you can call it blame if you like.
My comment is not insane as it addresses responsibility for all doesn’t matter the circumstances it will not change the fact that each person is personally responsible. To me when one blames another they do not accept responsibility. Now the actions of others certainly may have contributed to the circumstances but blaming them will not help change things as it will alleviate personal responsibility.
Person…………You’re contradicting yourself again. You say that you are not blaming poor people for being poor, then you say that it’s their fault they’re poor. And even without that, you don’t know how any given person GOT poor in the first place. Maybe… they were born with nothing, and never had the means to advance. (tuition money to go to college, and get a better job, for instance) And I didn’t say that your entire comment was insane, I said your generalization was. You used one assertion, and assigned it to a HUGE group of people, as if it fit every one if them, personally.
Gary David Currie …… I addressed you challenge in my comment. I said you can call it blame and then defined blame. If you want me to acknowledge that I am blaming people the way you are choosing to use blame then I am. I prefer to distinguish between responsibility and blame as different.
Let me ask you a question is it someone else’s responsibility for that person being poor even if they were born into it and if it is then how so?
Person…………..I didn’t say it was somebody else’s fault. I was inferring that sometimes, that’s just the way it is. Blaming someone for circumstances outside their control is still blaming, and it’s just as unfair.
Gary David Currie…………….. I agree that is just the way it is but it is still the responsibility of each individual to change their situation and my initial point was that so many blame others for their problems like the rich. Unfair has nothing to do with it. This is where you said I made an insane generalization.
Person…………. No, your insane generalization was that the poor are poor by their own volition. I said so a number of posts back, but you completely redirected, and accused me of making you the issue.
Person…………….Also, in retrospect, I should have said it’s still blaming, and it’s just as insane.
Gary David Currie …………..Ok but you now just agreed that it was not somebody else’s fault so if it is not theirs then who’s..
Person…………. As I said before, sometimes, it’s just circumstances, and there is no one scapegoat.
Gary David Currie………. I call those the house rules things beyond our control but still my initial point is that to blame others for ones situation is counterproductive. If it is just circumstances then why blame others which was the original point.
Person……………That’s not the part I took issue with, and I said so in my first comment to you.
Gary David Currie……….. But it is the part you took issue with as you said my comment which you categorized as me blaming the poor for being poor was insane and yet you agree that it is not anyone else’s fault. At some point each person will have to take responsibility for their situation no matter the circumstances and this was my point. You said I blamed the poor for being poor but again if it is not their fault ultimately are you saying it is just the way life is? If this is the case then no one is to blame using your definition for anything it all just happens.
Person…………..No. You’re misdirecting again, as I find it hard to believe you could be that obtuse. The part I took issue with was your blaming the poor for being poor, nothing about blaming others. You said, “That’s how they became poor”, neither of us …said anything in that initial exchange about why they remained poor. And yes, sometimes, that’s just the way life is. That doesn’t make it fair or likable, but saying that it’s someone’s fault for being poor, when they may have been born into those circumstances, is a part of the basis for my saying that you’re making an insane generalization. We don’t all start out rich, then the poor become poor through bad decision making, but the part of your comment that I took issue with suggests that.
Person………….Just a suggestion, but if you’re going to argue with someone, it would be useful if you read their commentary closely enough to know what they said, that you want to argue against. It’s becoming increasingly clear that you’re either ignoring, or skipping huge parts of the posts you’re arguing against.
Gary David Currie……………. Ok I just said that the part you took issue was exactly what you just said, I am not redirecting it is right at the beginning of the post.
Again I will ask you if it is not their fault for being poor then whose fault is it?
Also You assigned you own meaning to my comment without asking me to clarify it. The context was simple which you have not fully acknowledged. The idea was to not blame others like the rich for situation people find themselves in but to take responsibility for their own situations. You jump to a conclusion that I blamed the poor for being poor ignored the rest of my comment which needs the rest to be in context.
Gary David Currie………….. Here is s suggestion to you as well please take your own advise and quit blaming me for what you think I am doing wrong. You started out from the very beginning doing what you accuse me of doing. I keep trying to stay on issue and you keep making me the issue. The evidence is above. I then respond to your accusations and then you say I am the one beginning the accusations. Incredible..
I call this DRAMA. I am very good at staying on point but so many make the person they are debating with the issue. WHY?
Person………………You know what? I’m getting really tired of this crap. If you’re not going to read what I say, and respond to IT, instead of to whatever you’re turning it into in your head, I can’t have an intelligent conversation with you.
Gary David Currie………….. Of course you can’t have an intelligent conversation with me. I wonder why. Thanks for the examples of how to not stay on issue..
Person…………..Okay, now you’re doing it again. You took a fairly long post, you selected 3 words out of that post, and you’ve been complaining about them all the way along. Have you even once addressed anything else that I said in that post? No.
Gary David Currie…………. Have a good day ….
Person……..You’ve been picking at me about my arguing style, but then you accuse me of making you the issue. Isn’t that what YOU’RE doing? I have other things to do at the moment, and they’re not getting done while I sit here and argue semantics with you. I’ll check back to see if you had anything useful to say.
_________________________________________________
You tell me what you think. Was I trying to stay on point? Did I answer the person’s questions? Did the person stay on point? How do you bring the conversation back to the topic when people refuse to co-operate?
I realize we all want to be heard but as I have said before you must listen first. I try to ask questions. This conversation continued and for a few moments it was on point but the person in my opinion could not let go of how they perceived me. I offered to start again many times and I even said I agreed with them. What else can you do? These types of conversations are all too common.
If our communication is flawed from the beginning how can we ever talk? I must stress that there is a flow that needs need to be honoured and a set of rules. These rules are crucial and I find that most don’t even know the rules. When I ask them to look at them they refuse and again I become the topic of discussion.
The flaw is easily remedied if people just take a moment to understand how to properly have a discussion. If they do this they will see they will benefit just as much as anyone else.
If we can’t talk with respect then action beyond talk will never be positive in nature and we will continue to engage in the many problems we have created for ourselves. I find this sad.
