Journal Entry #342
February 7th, 2011
Continuing on from yesterdays post the conversation just got better. I just don’t understand why certain people just can’t admit that they might be wrong.
A believer seems to feel they have all the right answers and if you do not believe as they do then you are wrong. How could one possibly understand god and his message better then the true Christian? But of course exactly who decides what a true Christian is?
I challenge their claim and so far nothing has been offered as credible to verify it. Every argument or reason they give is not acceptable as evidence in reality so they claim to live in an alternate reality that I just can’t understand because I will not pretend like they do.
I am trying to figure out what personal experience has to do with what is true. I guess the thing that I see most is that they will ignore manu questions or comments and pick and chose the ones they feel they can defned against. They completly try and control the flow of the deabte / conversation instead of arguing properly. This I find not only disrespectful to the process but non productive.
Like I have said when you initial premise or proposition is flawed then it will be very difficult to defend this position so the faithful will try every trick in the book except reason and logic.
Christian #1….Gary, you are quite the aviator….. Indulging in flights of fancy and conclusions that are not warranted by the statements made! (But, you knew that already)
I am backtracking nothing, the sentence would be quite clear to any believer (or anyone else that doesn’t try to add words or inject their own bias and conclusion into the statement)
My belief in Christ as Son of God & saviour is obviously not what I am talking about. I am talking about my approach to spreading the Gospel, explaining things pertaining to Christ and my everyday “walk” are not “perfect” (meaning complete).
I am not referring to my “belief” in God being wrong, to me that is beyond contestation. (Call it “sealed”)
What I am (obviously) referring to (in context) is that my journey is not without error (sin). I am still learning, I do not think that I am 100% knowledgeable about the Bible — I am still teachable and seeking to learn.
I hope you can understand this, but cannot be any clearer.
Gary David Currie……. Backtrack again and you were making such progress…
So what you are saying now is that on this matter and all that pertains to god which is basically your entire life you cannot be wrong because god cannot be wrong.
You can either be wrong …or you can’t be wrong.. You cannot now sit and tell me which things you can be wrong on and which you can’t because that will still fall under the statement that you could be wrong.
I am sorry to use some reason and logic here. I know you don’t like that.
Just admit that on this matter I can be right.
Gary David Currie……….. I have no illusions I know that you can never admit this because it is the unforgivable sin but my logic is sound.
Christian #1…….Gary, you are not using reason and logic — you are drawing the conclusion that you want by adding information and quoting some out of context. Let me try one last time!
If I KNOW I need to go to TORONTO, 100% for sure…. I can be certain that I need to go there.
That doesn’t mean that I am “right” about the best, quickest, safest way to to TORONTO. I can take a wrong turn, miss an exit… But, still know that I need to keep my eye on the Goal of TORONTO.
Replace “TORONTO” with “JESUS”.
By the way, the unforgivable sin is not “doubting” or Thomas would have been in deep trouble! Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is what is generally called the “unforgivable sin”.
Gary David Currie……. Blasphemy is denial…
Ok your logic is sound as long as you verify Toronto to be real but it is not what you said.
So you are saying that you know the destination but not the route.
…So you are saying that one can admit they can be wrong on certain things but not on others.
Now we go to how do you determine what it is you can be right on?
You have already verified Toronto is real by credible evidence.
Now replace Toronto with a planet in the Andromeda galaxy, Nimbus 9 we will call it. This is comparable to god as there is some evidence it is real but not enough to verify it.
Now not only the route but the destination is in question.
You see your logic when truly tested does not hold up. The 2 premises are not compatible.
If you say you can be wrong on one thing you admit that you can be fallible. If one can be fallible on one thing what prevents one from being fallible on all things?
Christian #2……….Gary, You have not experienced everything, how can you say with absoluteness that what we have experienced is not real. Who made you the judge of our experience with your very limited experience? How arrogant for you to say we have not had and experience with the living God. Jesus is real!
Christian #1….I am saying that:
1. I know the Destination (Christ)
2. I know the route, but can make mistakes while on the road.
Christ is as real to me as Toronto (at least). I must take some facts about streets and population as accurate — I have not been able to verify all of them personally.
Christian#1…The reason you find God to be as “remote” as Nimbus 9 is because you refuse to:
(1). Use the “official” map
(2). Refuse to ask for directions, because you think you’ll find your way there if “Nimbus 9″ exists.
…Just because you haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Gary, as long as you’re the “god of one” (yourself), you will never seriously look for another — it would be too threatening and require you to change your entire life.
Gary David Currie….. I know that is what you are saying but the premise is flawed because Christ and Toronto are not comparable but you believe they are.
Toronto can be verified. I accept it as real and you do but Christ cannot be verified hence my planet in the Andromeda Galaxy.
As far as the logical process you are correct but as far as the subject of your premise you are not.
Logic requires a sound premise to begin with.
Besides you did not answer my other question
Back to accepting things as true that cannot be verified. Well I am sorry logic does not work that way. You do..
Ok If I accepted Zeus as real and I said all the things you say but used Zeus as my god would that be true?
Also If god was real I would accept it in a heartbeat because I value truth. It would not be threatening to me at all. Change is constant and I accept this. So let’s get away from this “GOD OF ONE” nonsense the you keep using as an excuse for what I say to not be true.
“Just because you haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”
Also a silly way to accept something as true. You will accept the unknown over what is known. Do you realize the implications of this statement this means anything can be true so we them must accept it all. You now must follow all gods with the premise.
Come on . You are trying to defend a position that is a negative and you are also asking me to verify a negative. Not possible
Christian #1………..Again Gary, you confuse your personal experience with mine. (Or lack thereof)
If I have had an unusual kind of food out of the country (for example), it is no less real because you have not heard of it, having never had it or any other such thing.
To the people in that foreign country that eat that food (potentially daily), it is easy to verify.
I have “found” the bread of life, yet had to find it personally. I can’t give you my piece, I can only tell you about it and hope you try to find it too.
Christian #1………“god of one” is not nonsense, there is no higher authority in your life than you, yourself personally. That is what I define as “god” in this case. If it bothers you, I can try to relabeling the term.
Gary David Currie……….. Again verified as we understand what food is. Ultimately I will take your word for it but I do not know if it is real or not until I actually eat it. You are right just because we can’t verify something does not mean it is true but it also doesn’t mean it is not true. Again the what if game.
Gary David Currie………… “god of one”
Ok But you say it as if it does not apply to you as well and it does.
Christian #1…….< It would not be threatening to me at all. Change is constant and I accept this.>
Christianity was not only a threat to my old life, it gave it a “death sentence”.
If Christ is not “threatening” to your current way of life….. Then perhaps you have not really ever seen a deep Christian life or fully studied what it means to follow Christ.
That is the difference between following a “human” and following the “Son of God”.
If one says “I’m not much different now than I was before”, I would really be concerned about the “state” or (at best) “maturity” of that person’s faith.
I agree about one thing: (and I’ll add words)
Change in the Christian life is constant, and I accept this.
That means, I haven’t “arrived”, I’m still traveling towards the destination. There are “side-roads”, “short-cuts” and “traffic-jams” that I need to avoid! (I can recognize them, but don’t always avoid them)See More
Gary David Currie….. That is your interpretation of what you pretend to be real. Nice words and all that but again not based in reality as your premise is not verified. You cannot verify the food you eat and speak about so passionately.
You want me to accept your version of Jesus and if I do not them my experience is not valued or correct in your eyes.
This is all testimonial stuff and Billy Mays does the same thing and I don’t believe him either.
Back to the true Christian dilemma.
You avoid my real pertinent questions in favour of what you see as the easy way to answer.
It is hard to defend an un-defendable position.
Christian #1……..Funny enough, for your recording setup, you purchased items based on testimonial. Most of life is based on testimonial from those that we trust.
(1) I want to accept JESUS as presented in His word. Don’t accept “my” version, or anyone el…se’s.
(2) I know who I serve and what He has done for me.
You can try the same whenever you are ready, anytime. That is a personal relationship with God — that is what is offered and described. Once you are willing to submit to requirements, you might just find Him. He will not march to the beat of your drum.
I really wonder about your prior experiences in Christian circles, that would probably explain a lot. I know the story of a person that was “mad” at God because they felt slighted in a “Kid’s group” decades earlier… etc.,
In regards to “pertinent” questions, what do you feel has been “avoided”? (please pick your top, most burning issue!)
Gary David Currie …..testimonials based on a product I could see and touch and someone who I asked a million questions and got to know before I trusted.
My prior experiences in Christianity are not valid as an Justification to for my current position in the ma…nner you are alluding to.
Question most pressing…you say you can be wrong on one thing you admit that you can be fallible. If one can be fallible on one thing what prevents one from being fallible on all things?
I can say I really wonder if you really took a journey of discovery to look at all options like you say you did but I do not question this as it has no bearing on our conversations.
I would love to know how you know that god has done these things for you. How can you show me that he has done these things without just telling me.
You seem to always be questioning my integrity Markus In regards to my experiences being valid or valued when it comes to god. Is my word not good enough for you? (MOST PRESSING QUESSTION)
I truly believe you believe what you say to be real I Just don’t believe it is real.
Christian #2……Gary you always seem to be questioning any follower of Jesus’ integrity of their experience being valid. Is not our word good enough for you? We know and have experienced Jesus and He has changed us, opened our eyes. Why would we lie?
Gary David Currie…….. Read what I said . I said I believe that you believe it is true. Just like I believe it is not but it is the evidence that will determine it.
You did not answer my question you asked another question. You are very good at avoiding answe…ring anything and always trying to place the burden back on the other person.
I do not question people’s integrity I question what they say. I accept that you believe now prove it.
I can tell you exactly why you would lie and have already many times. I do not think that you consciously acknowledge that you lie but you do lie . By the very fact that you and others will not admit you could be wrong you are lying.
I am sorry your word is not good enough for me. I said what I said because you and others always want me to take your word for it as evidence but will not take mine. I was making a point that someone’s word on this matter is not good enough.
They just can’t admit they might be wrong.
Seek the truth always
Gary David Currie